I look forward to ms jared’s review to. Post it soon, sister!

Yes re: health, even little things. I’ve been vegan for over a year (with freeganed dairy, egg products) and I’ve gotten sick less in that time. eg, I’ve only vomited once, whereas before going vegan, I’d throw up 3 or so times a year (as in feel really sick 2 or 3 times yearly, throw up once each time, and start to feel better), and before going vegetarian over a decade ago, I would get the flu about twice a year, and when I would, I’d be vomitting (and diarrheaing) for 3-7 days each time.

Yes, she was vegan for twenty years, and came to blame it for a spine condition she now has, when her condition could have predated her veganism, not to mention, very few people’s health worsens while vegan, and that is usually because they still have an American/industrial/junk food/white flour diet. Women do need to watch out for getting enough of Vitamin B12 and iron, tho. For goodness sakes, a good example is how the American Diabetes Association admits that the average vegan diet is healthier for diabetics than their own recommended omnivorous diet!

so much of what lierre wrote enraged me as well, obviously, and i’m only two-thirds of the way through my second reading as i am sourcing all of my points and rebuttals to her BS arguments.

one of my biggest frustrations is the same as yours: the whole “we take turns” part although OUR “turn” comes at the end of our life and not caused by animals when their “turn” comes early in their life and at our hand just because we want to.

so many of her health arguments are dishonest and deceptive and outright lies. reading it again, and so thoroughly, gets my blood boiling, but hopefully my final essay/debunking/rebuttal will make it all worth it and will convince some on the fencers that a veg*n lifestyle and diet IS the best for the planet, the animals, and the people.

Bacteria and viruses are the natural predators of humans and other large carnivores. Something has to keep us in check, too. I also would personally do anything in power to bring back the wolves, bears, and big cats who sometimes prey on humans. I don’t know how I could have been clearer in my book about the repair of biological communities that this planet needs.

I think most of us–and I mean all living creatures when I say “us”–panic at the moment of death, because life wants to live. But I wish I could have a sky burial and let the birds eat me when it’s time to take my turn. Failing that, the soil is welcome to me, to get the carbon and minerals that I borrowed while here back in circulation. So in the end, yes, I very much want to be eaten. I want to give back what I have been loaned, and become a part of it all again. Which is a good thing, because there’s not actually any way out of those cycles.

it is nigelesque! like lucky excoriating me for centreing animals, yet ignoring plants, yet somehow, i don’t think she practices cannibalism, thereby perpetuating the “man-made” creation of humans, esp men, over all living things

I’ve seen a lot of that theorised–that women can’t oppress, but I’ve not seen much evidence that the past societies of humans, pre-patriarchy, had no inequality. Also, if that is true (women can’t oppress), why can’t men not who are disadvantaged by race, class, sexuality, etc. Meaning, if women categorically cannot, why can a poor man of colour?

I dunno how I’ll handle the keeping it to myself. That, to me, is just like pretending I’m not anti-racist among white folk, or allowing leftist men to say misogynist shit. I think that if a radfem refuses to recognise the links between the oppression of women and animals, she’s not worthy of the term radical feminist.

Hey (everyone), did anyone else notice how Lierre Keith never even mentions Carol Adams in the veg myth? Pissed me off.

Hmmm…I’ll look into that Ben, thanks for telling me

I look forward to your Endgame post. A lot. Put it up soon, k?

“I’m Lierre Keith, the author of the book under discussion. I’m gathering from this thread that someone posted in jest about a fence down the Serengeti at some point recently? Rest assured, that is not the conversation I was referring to in my book. That conversation happened eight or nine years ago on a forum that no longer exists, or I most certainly would have footnoted it. Sorry to disappoint you. Some vegans–myself included once upon a time–are seriously upset by the issue of animal predation. ”

Also, our post about Derrick Jensen’s “Endgame” will be up in a few months. (We work several months ahead these days.)

Oh, and regarding veganism on the radfem boards, I made veggie land specifically for veg*ns to post without intrusion by non-veg*ns. You would be wise to make sure you don’t say too much about veg*nism on the main forums, b/c it’s a trigger. It’s very nigelesque. A lot of women do not see the connection between feminism and speciesism. However, as I said in response to your post, I don’t think women can actively oppress animals, since both animals and women are commodities under patriarchy.

Just for your sanity, though, don’t post veg*n related topics in the main forums. Everyone gets too stirred up.